The first question I had was, is there a rhythm section you have played with most in your life?

 

Yeah, I mean I think it’s been different times for me, you know like - there was one time for me when there was a period I played with Steve Watts, John Paricelli, and Steve Arguelles a lot. They are on my first two albums, and then they probably all left me because they got more famous or they hated my music (laughs).

 

I think you left them Martin, I think it was the other way around.

 

Yeah maybe I did that and I was too famous for them. No what actually happened was that I think they just started working loads, and I know Steve Arguelles moved to Paris. This was in the 80’s, that was a long time ago!

I’m really in favour of playing with the same people for a long time, I’m really in favour of that, when you get the right ones. I’ve been playing with Jeff Williams for nearly 17 years. If i’m doing a gig, i’d always just ask him first.

 

Really? Any kind of gig?

 

No. I won’t ask him to do my band Charukesi, which is Indian Arabic groove, odd time Music. He probably wouldn’t be into it, and also it would take him too Long to get it together. He could do, I’ve never thought of asking him. But there are people who generally, younger drummers who get that stuff together much easier, It’s very specific. But actually the drummer in that, Will Glaser, I wouldn’t ask him to do other things. There almost isn’t anyone apart from probably James Maddren who could do everything. 

 

So why would you book Jeff on pretty much anything? What is it about his playing that you like, and that fits.

 

Well there is something, I hate to say it, but there must be something about American playing. I don't know, I’m joking when I say it, because obviously I’m really influenced by American music. But I notice with him. I think that Gene Calderazzo has that to a certain extent as well. With Jeff, there is something I notice when I don’t play with him. Other people’s beat, it’s like Jeff is not as metronomic as other drummers at all. There are some drummers who are super metronomic and I can’t stand that. But you know what you’re getting, it’s really clear where fours are, and you know it’s not going to mess up. You know, Matt Fishwick I really love as well. His playing is really, the time is amazing.

 

It’s very solid and consistent

 

Yes, it’s ridiculously consistent.

 

I just notice Jeff’s beat. It’s indescribable, it has got a lot of depth, it’s very deep. I don’t even know how to put it into words, there’s a weight behind it. I remember Steve Coleman saying that about Sonny Stitt, when Steve Coleman was about 20 or something. Sonny Stitt would play in Chigaco, and Steve would go to his hotel room at about 9 o clock in the morning, and knock on the door wanting a lesson. Sonny would get out of bed, he’s an alcoholic right - stinking of vodka. He would take Steve’s horn and would play straight away. Steve said it sounded like drums, he played and said it sounded so rhythmic, deep and heavy. That’s the thing, it’s really hard even describe. It will be Jeff’s experience of course that’s got him to this stage. He’s 70 this year, and I know he started playing along when he was 6 or 8 years old, soon as he went home from school. Playing on all sorts of kind of things, pots and pans I think, playing along with Miles Davis and Ahmad Jamal. He’s had a very unique upbringing, there are a few people like this where his mum just loved Jazz and was a Jazz singer. He met Miles when he was 11, Jo Jones would go round there, they would hang out. Coleman Hawkins, all those kind of people, Ben Webster. They would drop in at her house, so he had informal lessons. He studied with Alan Dawson as well. All that must mean a lot, Jeff Williams is like the archetype of a Jazz Musician, old type of Jazz Musician, there are very few left now. There’s probably a couple here, where theyve had not the same, but a similar kind of thing like Josh Arcoleo, because he grew up home schooled, and also he went on the road early with Pee-Wee-Ellis, and he took him under his wing. That’s mentoring, this doesn’t happen now.

 

I’m very envious of that

 

But that’s what I think the role of us in colleges is.  It’s more of a mentoring thing, you know. I mean i’m lucky i’ve ended up teaching at colleges because I always end up playing with people i’ve taught at some point. I’ve always played with younger players, and older players. I’ve always played with Jeff. Mike Outram i’ve played with for 15 years, nearly 20 years. As soon as he came to London I started playing with him because someone told me about him. I didn’t know his playing at all, someone just recommended him, and I’ve seen him get better and better all the time. Playing with Jeff and Mike, they are the people I would play with all the time. We’ve played trio a lot with out bass, but if we had a bassist I would play with Calum Gourlay. I used to play with a bassist called Mick Hutton for loads and loads of years as well. I’d always wanna play with those guys, Mick did it with Mike Outram for a bit, it crossed over. I can’t remember who would play drums. Tom Skinner I played with a long time for as well, he is great. I miss playing with him!

You know, it’s just getting older. I think there’s a thing, the challenge of playing with younger people is complex physiologicalaly. If they’re not doing much and they’re not very famous, it’s great for a while. Then I’m some sort of father figure or mentor, but then they get really good and they do loads of other gigs. Then they want to play with their generation, and that’s what happens. They were all playing in 'The Invisible' or something at the time, with Tom Herbert. I had a band with Tom Herbert, Mike Outram and Tom Skinner for quite a while. I really enjoyed that, and then Herbet and Skinner left at the exact same time, and said they didn’t wanna do it anymore. So there’s been these long relationships, with Steve Watts and John Parricelli, and then Mike Outram since I stopped playing with John Parricelli. So then Mike’s nearly 20 years probably, and then Mick Hutton for a long time on bass. Since then bass players, probably Calum mainly. Yeah, I mean there are some others if I can think of them, what other bass players are there? 

 

There’s never enough bass players

 

I don’t play much with Steve now, but I used to play with him loads for about 20 years. But there are all these relationships that I had. What I look for in a rhythm section, I mean Mike and Jeff and Calum are probably perfect. You don’t have to say anything to them Musicially most of the time. The thing is, they’ve listened to loads of music. This is the most important thing, masses of music. They’ve also played with a lot of the people I am massively influenced by, a lot of those american musicians. Lovano or someone or Tom Harrell. One of my biggest influences is Paul Motian, Jeff obviously hasn’t played with him, but he would have been around at that time. Even though he isn’t his favourite drummer, he would have picked up something, and he knows I like him, so he probably would probably put some of that area into the music anyway. Jeff’s from Tony Williams, Jack DeJohnette probably. 

 

It’s really interesting analysing this with you. 

 

Well, Jeff will have anything with Miles Davis. All the bootlegs, everything. Probably Coltrane as well. I really love all of that, but my thing is more Charlie Parker and Paul Motian, Ornette. Then Mike Outram is going to be something else you know. But all of us cross over. 

 

Everyone does I guess, I suppose it’s all in the lineage.

 

Yeah, you do a lot of listening. If you know what to listen to. But some people don’t. Some people only listen to modern things, that’s no good. 

 

Of course!

It’s serving the music, and putting the music first I guess?

 

To me, it’s about serving the music and putting it first. Well that’s what I think, so that’s very interesting those three drummers that i’ve been very lucky to play with a lot. That was my observation about Jorge, I think. I’m searching for those people who will serve the music, and get the ego out the way. It’s hard, you need the ego to put your personality there, but it’s a fine line the whole thing. It’s interesting hearing the combination of those two drummers, and they are both amazing. You get different things from different people you know. 

 

So i’ve got a few more questions if that’s alright?

Yeah go on.

 

Are there any rhythm sections on records where you don’t think they sound that good?

 

Hahahaha! Probably, I can’t think of any at the moment. I mean there’s probably times when some of those great rhythm sections don’t sound great either, because they’re drunk. There’s that time on live at the blackhawk, the boxset. Originally they didn’t release all that, they wouldn’t of wanted it all released. It just slows down you know! Autumn Leaves I think, really slows down. Paul Chambers is probably falling asleep or something, I don’t know. So there’s that kind of thing, I guess it’s better to speed up than slow down. 

 

Final few questions, what is the most unexpected rhythm section combinations you’ve come across? Say Bill Evans and Elvin.

 

Yeah there is one of Bill and Elvin, with Stan Getz. I think it might even be Richard Davis on bass. That’s exactly it, Bill Evans and Elvin is a funny one isn’t it. There’s a lot of Paul Motian ones that I never would have thought. Paul Motian and John Pattitucci, there’s a Chick Corea one as well towards the end of his life. Theres an earlier one of Joe Henderson, Paul Motian and David Friesen I think. Check out Paul Motian’s discography, and then you’ll see some unusual recordings, because there’s a huge discography. I think it’s the same with all of them because they all played together, but sometimes they didn’t record. Paul Motian said to me ‘I had this gig with Jimmy Garrison, Bill Evans and Ben Webster’. Then there’s that story of Lennie Tristano firing a bass player every week, Paul Motian had the gig for 11 weeks but every week there would be a different bass player. I didn’t hear that, so I don’t know. 

I’m thinking about what you said earlier about what rhythm sections I don’t think sound good, but I don’t know if I should mention them because they are famous! I’ll be in trouble here won’t I. 

 

No go on.

 

I don’t like the Brad Melhdau trio sometimes, because it sounds boring. It’s great with Jorge, and of course Jeff Ballard is an amazing drummer. Also Keith Jarrett and Jack DeJohnette. I love Keith and all that, I think there’s a stage where they get too famous. Maybe they are doing too many gigs or something and they go through the motions. Keith talks about that on an album and says ‘I never want to go through the motions’, maybe he doesn’t. Sometimes it doesn’t sound right for me, and I really love Keith Jarrett. He’s one of my biggest influences, him and Brad Mehldau. There’s probably loads of other things actually that don’t sound very good. Also people are just human aren’t they? We expect people to be super human, all these heroes of ours. Why aren’t they playing brilliantly all the time? I mean Charlie Parker doesn’t sound good sometimes, and he’s my favourite musician probably. As Steve Coleman says in the email, ‘In this period Charlie was actually very healthy, and you can hear his time sounds amazing, because he’s healthy and he feels better’. Some of those rhythm sections sound a bit weird though. 

 

It is odd, very odd. Because we always look up to these Jazz guys as heroes.

 

Yeah exactly.

 

Finally, one last question - If you could play with any rhythm section, who would you play with?

 

Well for different things. Bud Powell and Roy Haynes or Max even, but I don’t know what bass player i’d have though, maybe Tommy Potter. But the ultimate for me would be to play with Charlie Haden and Paul Motian, I’m lucky I played with Paul a few times but not Charlie. Probably not Keith because he’s not a very good comper. Bill Frisell. Those three. A lot of my music is from that area of that music. Not all of it, but a lot of it is influenced by those players, compositionally and just the way they play. None of those guys are virtuosos are they, it’s not like Christian McBride or, what drummers are virtuosos? Gary Novak. John Mclaughlin as well. 

 

You’ve helped me out so much. Thank you, I'll spend the whole day writing this out now and see what comes out best.

 

Thank you.