I guess the most important thing, that I didn’t really realise when I started playing but it became more and more apparent when I got into the music, is which ride cymbal feels have stood out to you most and why? 

 

It’s changed over the years, through what I've been listening to. When I first started, same for me - it wasn’t as apparently important when I first started. It was to try and get the feel and sound of a ‘Jazz Swing Ride Cymbal pattern’ down, without digging into individual sounds too much. I guess the first time I really started thinking about it was when Simon Purcell was talking about it in improvisation class, listening to different peoples ride cymbal beats. That’s when I made a conscious decision to put three different records on, one after another and figure it out. You get your Max Roach one, kind of straight - not much swing in it. Then you put that against the Philly Joe one that is as swingy as you get. I guess there are discrepancies in the be bop guys time playing, but there is more discrepancy when you go later on, with guys like Elvin - his time and feel is very different to those older guys. It’s a lot more spacious and bouncy, obviously based on triplets. Then you get into the whole different tempo ride cymbal feels, and how they play their ride cymbal at different tempos, which is really important. I guess I always got told that your ride cymbal has to be consistent no matter what the tempo is. But then, when you listen to Tony at a medium tempo, which is very rare - but you get it, and it’s really close together, and kind of off the semiquaver. His cymbal beat is almost wider when he’s playing faster in a way. It seems like it has got more space, I think that's also to do with the way he phrases when he is playing fast, but it seems like there’s more space. But then you get Elvin at faster tempos and he’s not really playing skip beats, he’s playing more of a 3 over 4 clave. Dung Ch Dung Dung Ch Dung. I guess it’s important to listen to loads, but it’s weird - you can emulate them, but then people start saying ‘Hey you sound like X Y and Z’ whereas you want to take them all in, and then figure out what you want to do with your own. I don’t think it's something I've really consciously thought ‘I want my ride cymbal to sound like this’ maybe, you know better than me because you’ve heard me more than I've heard myself. I was teaching someone yesterday and was saying ‘It has to be present, powerful, and the focus of the mix of the drum kit when you are playing swing’. That’s the most important thing, because if you can’t make that sound good then everything else you do underneath isn’t going to sound good either.

 

It took me a long time to understand the importance of the focus of the ride cymbal, I was just hearing all these crazy chops from guys like Tain and Elvin, and just wanted to figure out what they were doing. One of the biggest turning points for me, was when I started getting deep into the Oscar Peterson trio and Ahmad Jamal. I realised I wasn’t hearing Ed Thigpen or Vernell Fournier playing any of that stuff. That wasn’t their role in that rhythm section. 

 

Yeah, their job was to make it sound and feel good chugging along really nicely. That’s what I always say to younger people ‘Don’t just go in and get involved in the things that are going to make you sound better and flashier. You need to check out someone just playing time, like a Blakey groove. Because, that’s the best feeling in Jazz. That thing.’

 

I remember playing at one of your Jam sessions in first year. I was playing all these fancy ideas, then I ran out of ideas, and had no clue what to play next! So I said to myself I would just play the ride cymbal and cross stick on beat 4. That was the first time the bassist looked over at me and said ‘yeah that’s nice!!’ I was so confused as to why he said that. It’s because I wasn’t playing anything fancy and just holding down a groove. If I just play time and play that well, that’s what people want. 

 

Exactly, it’s a foundation for the music to bounce. Stuff starts happening, when you give it back, cook on the groove, then there is more space for things to happen. I remember a couple of years ago you said to me ‘Man you always crotchets on the ride cymbal’. I said you should try it out sometime because it’s good! And you were telling me how hip it was just playing that for ages. It’s more simple than playing a skip beat, and in a way it sounds hipper because you are playing the most simple thing musically which is just playing consistent crotchets but making it feel really nice. It sounds really easy but it’s so hard to do. 

 

That’s why I love Ali Jackon. He can just sit on that, and it sounds amazing. 

 

He’s good at that. But then that’s going back to those Ahmad Jamal records with Vernell. That’s all they are doing, half the time they aren’t even using their left hand - they are just playing time. It leaves so much space for Ahmad Jamal or whoever it is to do what he wants. Obviously it’s cool to have the chops, but if you have good ride cymbal time, everything just looks after itself. 

 

That’s what people want, they just want to hear good time

 

Yeah, I remember Simon Purcell said to me ‘I like your playing, but just go and shed some ride cymbal playing’. That’s what you were saying about that jam you were playing at, but when you do get that together, then whatever else you play is kind of irrelevant in a way. If you have good time and make it sound good, then people will book you. 

 

I was talking about this with James Maddren yesterday, because when you are in a practise room you will naturally just want to get all your chops out, but being disciplined enough in the practise room to tell yourself to just play focused ride cymbal stuff for the next chunk of my practise. 

 

Exactly, that’s the best thing to practise in a way, to forget your ego and the chops you have and then telling yourself ‘I’m going to play focussed single strokes on the snare drum for half an hour or i’m going to play ride cymbal time for 20 minutes, or play one idea for 40 minutes or whatever it is’. That’s going to be more beneficial. 

 

That’s perfect. Something we haven’t really gotten deep into before but i’m going to ask you is, what do you like in a bass player, and how would you practise with a bass player ‘locking in’ whatever that term means.

 

What do I like in a bass player? Obviously solid crotchet, that doesn’t fluctuate or push/pull back. But that’s a different thing actually, it’s more about them not rushing or slowing down. Also, I like bass players that lay it down, and only get involved when needed. So if I start doing something and they get involved, then it can detract from what the piano player or whoever is soloing is playing. I kind of prefer if they dig in and just lay it down. Sometimes it can work. Other times you can get electric players who have switched to double and they are dropping fills in on walking lines, but they need to learn their role and do it well. It’s kind of like what we were talking about playing fancy stuff on drums. Just do your role and make it sound really good before you put in these weird things that don’t fit. That doesn’t really happen much because, but when it does it really doesn’t work. I guess solid quarter notes, don’t mess around much, because their thing is to underpin the whole sound harmonically and rhythmically. We are holding it down rhythmically most of the time, so if the bassist starts doing some weird thing rhythmically and loses the focus on the harmony, then it’s going to detract what the piano player is doing, and then it all falls apart. So they have be good enough to facilitate all the rhythm, but underpin the harmony in the way that they are meant to. Then there’s the whole thing of when to play in 2 and 4, but that’s more of a natural thing because the more you play it the more you learn. On drums as well, you can play a head in 2, then go to the sticks but play in two. Then you go straight into four. Try and mix things up, don’t just play it like Jamie Abersol bang bang in a prescribed way. But that’s what a lot of bass players did when we were younger, ‘So we’ve had a solo, now I must go back to a two feel’. But no man, keep slamming it away on the next chorus because it’s happening! ‘

Then there’s the whole thing of playing on top of the beat or behind the beat and on the beat. For me, because I play on top of the beat a lot, so it’s nice to have an agreement where if they play slightly behind the beat we can meet right in the middle. It will sound better like that. Sometimes it can be great if we just push and it’s really happening, you can feel it but it never speeds up. That can be really exciting. Sometimes there can be times to both sit back on it and really let it swing, but it’s all back to the thing of playing nice swing. That just comes from listening to great bass and drum duos.

 

Who would you say sounds great together?

 

Paul Chambers and Philly Joe playing ‘It Could Happen to You’ on Relaxin With The Miles Davis Quintet. That’s my favourite example, because Paul Chambers is really on top, and Philly Joe's four feel isn’t really on top of the beat. So it is a really nice juxtaposition of him driving it forward, and Philly chilling. This is what I mean by don’t do all the prescribed stuff, because he could have really gone into walking on Miles’ solo, and I'm sure that would have sounded great. But because Paul stayed in two the whole time, it’s a really different thing. I think that’s a great example. 

 

If you want an example of on the top playing, any of those Miles Second quintet records live in Europe in the 60s. You hear the start of so what, and then Tony just goes in. There aren’t any disagreements, because they are so together. They haven’t sped up, they are just really on top of the beat. I guess you have to figure out, when you play with people more often, and play with the same bass player a lot which is great to do, then you can figure out those things together. When it’s a scratch band on a scratch gig, and you don’t play with that guy much, then those things won’t be happening as much. When you have those decisions, sometimes there can be disagreements but that's part of being a Jazz musician, because those things can happen. 

 

The second part of the question is how would you practise locking in with a bassist? 

 

I guess it's just the same as practising your ride cymbal, stick a metronome on together and play time. Lets play on top, or you play on top and I play behind and there are always different combinations. Practise without a metronome as well, practise those hard rhythmic things together. ‘Here’s the que, when I play this we are going to try this’. That's when those little ideas come together, of course it’s less organic and prescribed. But, when you are playing, if you practise it like that, it will come out in a natural way. I play with Ferg Ireland, and he knows my little things, and I know his. It’s the same with Will Sach, the more you play, the stronger and easier the relationship gets with them. You have to have some sort of personal relationship with them as well, it doesn’t have to be the strongest, but you have to have one. For the musical relationship to be better, and have more things happening you have to have a personal bond. Someone could be the most killing bass player in the world, but if you don’t get on then it’s not going to happen. 

 

A really interesting thing you were talking about playing more prescribed ways of ‘Going into a 2 feel then into 4 etc’ Although i’d hate to think about it, but imagine at the end of McCoy’s solo, with Coltrane about to come in, imagine if they took it back down?! It wouldn’t make any sense. 

 

Yeah. Obviously those guys were at the peak of their powers musically. Most of the time they drop down at the start of Mccoy’s solos a little bit, then the energy comes back. I guess it’s a logical thing as well, if it’s really happening, why would you want to bring it back down? You’ve got to let the thing have it’s moment and see where it goes. As always, things have a natural end - you can’t force something. I feel like sometimes it works both ways, people try to implement what they want to have on the music at a certain time in a forceful way, because they think that's right, but they aren’t always listening to what is actually going on. There are times when you have to override it as a drummer and say ‘No, this is what we are doing, because this is the natural and logical thing’. Then people try and force the energy as well which is something you can’t do either. It all comes down to being comfortable with what you’re playing, and also being comfortable with the people you’re playing, and that comes back to having a relationship with the people you’re playing with. 

 

You kind of answered my next question which was, how do you deal with comping over a bass or piano solo?

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Ah! That’s such a hard question. From a drummers perspective? I guess a lot of what I just said bleeds into that, but purely from a drummers perspective I said recently to a couple of people there are 4 or 5 different ways to comp. The first one is, just nicely swinging, letting the soloist do their thing, with minimal interaction, but making it sound really good. The second is, having the conversational approach of sentences. They play a little thing, then they leave space, and you fill the space with a reply, in whatever way is appropriate. This is more for piano or horn solos by the way, I'll get to bass later. The third approach is comping in the hookup way, where you are going for the comping in the piano player's left hand or whatever it might be, or if the horn player plays da da da da, you play the same thing. The fourth way for me, is the platform approach, where you are providing a platform for them, more interactive, less direct conversation but making sounds. I guess the more Tain and Elvin intensity approach way to improvise. Then I guess the final way is the best approach where you can do all of those things, depending on what the music is wanting and asking for at that time. You might have just come out of a really ridiculous horn solo that's been high intensity the whole time. That’s when you make the musical decision to drop it back down to just playing time for as long as possible. It might be for the whole solo, or you might think ‘Okay we’ve done this for a while, now I want to bring up the intensity, but I don’t want to go too in, so maybe i’ll drop in some conversational bits, and drop in some hook ups’. It’s got to be a conversation of all those things depending on the musical situation at the time. You can’t just comp in one way the whole time, otherwise it gets pretty boring. There’s obviously loads of different ways to comp, but for me that’s the five main ways for me. Most of the time they all kind of fit into one of those categories. 

Then for bass solos over the years I’ve had lots of different things said about that, by bass players to me. I think for me it's a very personal thing for each bass player. Sometimes they want you just to play time and nothing else, sometimes they want you to drop out so they can do their thing which is cool. It gives you a nice break! And it's a different thing that’s happening with different frequencies. Then sometimes they want you to interact and not drop out. Again, it’s the same thing as other comping, you have got to gauge it on the spot. But then if they drop out and look at you thinking ‘Hey man what are you doing?’ Then you have to find the right musical time to come back in. It’s just about being aware of what's going on around you. If you know the guys you are playing with, you know what they like and don’t like. I know Ferg doesn’t like drummers dropping out on his bass solos, i’ll change up what i’m doing but i’ll never drop out. Sometimes I'll drop out for four bars, let him have his thing and then I'll come back in. 

The best way to approach comping is to listen to how they comp, and figure out where you are going to be on that spectrum. ‘Am I going to be a be bop comper for the rest of my life or am I going to have that other knowledge and vocabulary, and get it out when it’s necessary?’ Then I have lots of other things in the back of my locker and can bring to the comping table. 

 

Yes, the common thread in all these conversations with people i’ve spoken to is ‘Listening to the music’. 

 

Of course, you have to listen! If you want to be a pop musician, you have to listen to pop music and how that works. 

 

One of the most important things you've ever said to me in the last four years is listening to music properly. Listening to music whilst doing the dishes, or having it on in the background whilst doing work isn’t the correct focussed way of listening. 

 

100%. You can still get information from listening like that, but no way near as much detail that you need. Especially if you are listening to music for a reason, you can’t just listen to music like that. You have to sit down and pay attention to what it is you are trying to learn. If you are trying to learn a solo, you can just have it on in the background and then expect to have it learnt. If you are going to learn the solo you have to literally listen to it 100 times without anything else going on. It’s like anything, if you want to be a football player, you are going to have to watch other people play football who are really good at it and see what they do. You don’t just walk on to a pitch with the best ideas straight away without having done anything. It’s the same with Jazz, you are going to get more ideas and learn faster if you listen to the music. It’s the same as learning a language, you can’t just speak French, you have to learn about the past and history of the language and how you join your sentences up together. Records are the best examples of sticking things together in a way that makes sense. 

 

It’s also about watching these drummers play as well on videos. 

 

I was watching that video you sent me that Gene Calderazzo shared of Elvin playing. His left hand was mental! But yeah, that’s a whole new three hour conversation. 

 

Okay so, this is the final question. There is a very modern way of building tension and resolution in a Tony/Elvin style. How do find the older drummers deal with tension and resolution?

 

That’s a good question, I like that. Those guys, Art, Max, and Philly. Like on the It Could Happen to you record, that’s a perfect example of tension and release, mostly tension for me. The release would be going into four, but whoever made that decision really kept the tension building. It might have been both of them. They just kept going. 

Blakey with his press rolls, that’s a great release from loads of tension, he builds up the tension with comping patterns that are repetitive. Then he finishes with a massive crash cymbal and that’s the resolution. It goes back to what I was saying about comping and playing the same idea, but it’s also building a sort of tension, because it's like ‘Wow he’s doing that same thing over and over again, how is it going to change and how is it going to evolve, and how is it going to release what has been built up?’. You can play the same idea, then the way you can build it is adding one note into that idea, then you add another, then it adds another onto a resolution point, and then that is when it evolves. The way those guys build tension with people like Elvin and Tain, is that it’s more cross rhythms, lots of drums, more textural tension building as opposed to comping tension building. I think the older guy's way of building tension is more direct comping bass. Hook ups with piano players are more direct, like the straight no chaser one. They play that for ages!

 

Yeah, they play that hook up on so many records as well! 

 

 Again, it goes back to knowing the people you are playing with. You play so much with them you just know what they do. It doesn’t get old. I guess it’s just little ideas, like Art Blakey on This I dig of You over Hank Mobley, he is building tension and resolution into a launchpad with the ride cymbal bell accenting. Little fills as well. Obviously with the modern approach if they are filling all the time and there is a lot more going on, with the older guys they can just play two beat fills with a massive crash at the end. I guess it's a more, rudimentary approach. ‘Hey how can I release the tension? I’ll play a nice drum fill and smack beat one!’ 

 

Or even a drum roll!

 

Yeah, people always say to me just put a nice press roll in there that will be great! Because it’s an instant way of building and releasing tension. Whoaaaa Bang! Then you’re out. The tension doesn’t even have to be longed out. What's your own answer to your own question? 

 

It’s probably very similar to yours! We’ve spoken about this in the past as well, just playing repeated ideas. I often think about having a conversation with a younger child, and they are just answering back the same question, like ‘what’ or ‘why’. They keep saying it, and then when they finally say something else back, that’s the resolution point! We can apply that to playing this music. 

I want to get into Roy Haynes some point about building the tension and resolution, because he has really played and seen Jazz through the evolution from the early days. He’s not just known for those Parker gigs, he’s known as well with Chick and all those other guys - it’s never ending! I think it’s just harder to hear with the older guys their way of dealing with tension and resolution. In the bebop era, they were keeping time consistently with their bass drum and left foot on the hi hat, and comping would be on the snare. I guess that’s one of your earlier points on comping, then you get into Elvin and Tain and suddenly they start comping more with the toms. 

 

Yeah, also with the 40’s and 50’s way, even a timbre change, changing the cymbal. I was listening to  A.T’s delight before you called, and there was one moment where on a different solo he started playing a real heavier and darkers. Also just starting on the hi hat then going on the ride cymbal, simple things like that can really change tension and release in the music. Even just closed his hat to an open hi hat. The whole time you are feathering, and playing four on a cross stick, but the sound of the hi hat changing, with dynamics manages how the tension is released. 

 

For sure! Dave Wickins was the master of that kind of stuff. 

 

Yes, even just simple use of tension is just dynamics is the most simple way to use tension, or create it. You can be cooking along really quietly, and then adding a really loud bang when you want to release it. That’s tension, and then it just releases it dynamically. 

 

The Ahmad Jamal trio did that so effectively. 

 

There’s not even a lot of that conversational approach of playing Jazz in that music. But there is so much dynamic use in those records, even in Poinciana, when Vernell is on the hi hat, then when he goes onto the ride bell it takes it up to the next level which just increases the tension more. 

 

Man there’s so much to think about. Even Tony, he didn’t use his left cymbal as a ride, just a crash. So many drummers approach it in different ways. It requires so much heavier listening. 

 

That’s pretty much everything I wanted to ask! Thank you for your time man.